EFI Project

[Birdoprey]

Just thought that i'd throw in an update. Work and Honey-Do's(work around the house) has kept progress down. After much research and butting my head against the wall, i've decided to go with the Haltech E8. I REALLY want to have fully programmable ignition as well as ditch the wasted spark arrangement. The E8 fits the bill as well as has many other features that i want for the future. The E6X is capable of the odd fire but does not have enough outputs for ignition. The problem is that to use it one still has to have a different trigger on the crank and prolly one on the cam as well. This is the case with the Megasquirt too. So if i'm going through the trouble of adding a crank trigger and cam sensor, then i'm going to do the ignition too. Its no more trouble to add once you have the triggers for sequential injection. Just a little change in the software settings.
The reason i have personally ditched using the Megasquirt is that no one is sure if it will support the oddfire. It can be used with the stk ignition of the V-max, but if you don't add the trigger wheel and cam sensor, then the Megasquirt will only be able to do a batch fire. There have been a couple of people that have run the MS on a V-max, but have you noticed that NONE have posted up any #'s? Or really any more info since stating that they got it running??? This concerns me. Using the stk ignition and no additional triggers, the MS is gonna just be throwing fuel in there at the wrong time(except for the first cyl that actually has a trigger). It will have no way of knowing the crank angles to even do a decent batch fire. My brain and pride just simply won't allow me to do this! If i'm going through the trouble of going with EFI, i'm gonna gain all the benifits of doing so, not just saying "i have EFI"...
Also, i REALLY want to have true SEQUENTIAL injection. Peak hp and tq will not differ much between sequential and batch, but the real benifits are at idle and low and midrange rpm. Average hp and tq will be much better. You will really notice this just putting around and even "spirited" riding. Larger riders will notice the extra tq down low as well. In dragracing, there will not be much difference, but sequential injection will prolly make it easier to 60'.
I picked up a E8 with wiring harness/map sensor/air temp and coolant temp connectors AND LS1 coils/connectors for $800(used. Looks new). The LS1 coils and connectors would prolly run $100 or so used. The map sensor is around $60 or so and the wiring harness runs $100 and up. So, i figure my ECU investment is prolly around $550-600 which is very close to the Megasquirt.
Even if i bought the E8 new, the whole investment will prolly end up being under $2500(actually for me it will be well under since i already had the fuel system and TB's sitting on a shelf) and this will include everything for fully programmable sequential injection AND ignition. This includes the cost of the coils. A bonus is that there will be some neat options for the spark output. Right now i'm gonna run the LS1 coils which will put out more spark than the stk V-max coils. They are a Coil-near-plug so will have short plug wires(non resistor type). If you wanna over tripple your spark output(vs the LS-1 coils), the LS-2 coils are super easy to add. No extra wiring or anything.
There will still be the option of running COP's, but one will need an ignitor(which is not hard to do). Some Toyotas run a COP with a built-in ignitor, so it would be super easy to do this as well.
Anyway, i'm sure i've bored most of you. I've attatched some pic's of my new E8 setup. :eusa_dance:
BTW, i have a MS setup if someone else wants to try to go this route...:ummm:

 

[Birdoprey]

Forgot to add that the Haltech FX10(or is it F10X?) will not work. Its simply a plug-n-play replacement ecu for a FACTORY ecu. Its designed for use with a specific engine that was already EFI'd from the factory.

 

[Fabius72]

Hi Mark! (Also hello to Gary and all other)
We (me and Luca) have some problem to understand all you and other people write in your language... so excuse us! We normally read your threads, but unfortunately translator can't help us about all technical words you normally use.
We are also learning language both know how about EFI. Many thanks! At the moment we decided to buy however Megasquirt2. First step will be take confidence with Megatune (management program) using Megasquirt for injection and stk ecu for ignition.
We know that is not the best solution, but we think we'll do with experience and James's help.
Any news we will write here!
I enjoy you to have a good work. I'm sure!

 

[joelyons50023]

This is my question if the dyna3000 makes the ign. into a single fire design how does it do this and if does then why can't the signal for the wasted spark be used to activate the injector?

 

[Birdoprey]

This is my question if the dyna3000 makes the ign. into a single fire design how does it do this and if does then why can't the signal for the wasted spark be used to activate the injector?

Where did you hear that the Dyna3000 is a "single fire design"(non-wasted spark)? In order to have a single spark per 720deg(4 stroke), it requires some type of reference of the cam. None of the factory V-max's(85-07) have this, thus anything that hooks to the factory harness uses the factory crank pickups which would fire every 360 deg(for each cyl) thus a wasted spark arrangement.

There is the possibility of using a map sensor as a reference. The vacuum would need to be hook to a single cyl, thus the map sensor would see a vac. "pulse" only once during 720 deg(on the intake stroke). The problem with this is that the "pulses" would get smaller as the rpm rises(air takes the path of least resistance, and at 9000rpm the least resistance would be in the large intake port and not the very small vac port) which would prolly cause issues. There would be other factors involved with trying this and it would get very complicated.
We know the V-max does not use its map sensor in this mannor since one can remove the vaccum line from it and the bike still runs(though with no additional ignition advance)

There are a couple of ways to trigger the MS. One is to use the tach output or negative side of ONE of the ignition coils. The problem with this is that the MS would have no way of knowing when to fire any of the other cyls. There is one that i know of that has used this and has his V-max running. The problem i have with this is that he is just throwing fuel in the other cyls at various times. Though a "batch" fire setup throws fuel in at the wrong times, there is at least ONE time where it is timed right. Since our motors are very Odd firing(0 deg, 180 deg, 250 deg, 180 deg, 110 deg), it would be next to impossible to hit them all correctly.
Another way would be to use the crank trigger(feed both the MS and the stk ignition). This would allow the MS to fire each cyl correctly though it would also fire the injectors on the exhaust stroke(like the wasted spark does its spark). I'm ok with this. You can set the MS to fire half the fuel on each trigger and thus you end up with the correct fuel. If you have a 90-up V-max with the single crank pickup, this should be pretty easy to do. Just tie into the factory pickup sensor signal and you should be good to go. If you have a 85-89, then this gets more complicated due to it having 4 pickup sensors sending 4 individual signals to the ECU(via 4 different wires). Tim Nash mentioned using diodes to combine the 4 signals into one, though i have not had the time to find out more about this. I think this would be the ticket for using the MS on a 85-89 V-max if it works. I'm having a hard time doing this since its not really what i personally want(i wan't true sequential and i want to control ignition as well)and i only have so much time and $$$ to devote. I already have the MS(in fact i believe i have two more complete kits that are unassembled). If someone wants to build(or explain what i would need to do to build it myself) the diode board to combine the signals, then i would consider getting the MS up and running. This would strictly be for everyone else's benifit that wants a simple and cheap EFI setup but wants to keep the stk ignition.
Gary and I have been doing most all of the research and such ourselves and it has proved very taxing(and expensive). Though we really wanna help everyone on the board to get what they personally want, we can't do it all on our own. We have had some offer to help with parts and such and its been MUCH appreciated. But in order to cover what others want, we could use some to help figure out and/or do a few things.

 

[satariel666]

What will fit up to those intakes?

Probably nothing but lot of work saved with them.
For those who dont have a way to fabricate intakes from aluminium.

 

[Birdoprey]

Probably nothing but lot of work saved with them.
For those who dont have a way to fabricate intakes from aluminium.

I believe those intake manifolds have even SMALLER ID than do the stk V-max intake manifolds. The problem with those intakes would be no available TB's small enough to fit. Also one would not want to go smaller anyway. In fact, the stk 35mm V-max carbs would be a restriction if the V-boost was not used.

 

[satariel666]

Hi Mark! (Also hello to Gary and all other)
We (me and Luca) have some problem to understand all you and other people write in your language... so excuse us! We normally read your threads, but unfortunately translator can't help us about all technical words you normally use.
We are also learning language both know how about EFI. Many thanks! At the moment we decided to buy however Megasquirt2. First step will be take confidence with Megatune (management program) using Megasquirt for injection and stk ecu for ignition.
We know that is not the best solution, but we think we'll do with experience and James's help.
Any news we will write here!
I enjoy you to have a good work. I'm sure!

Same here bro :biglaugh:
For me it's not any problem with technical translation but i have some problems with south accent/jargon. You cant learn that, you must know that

BTW if you're planning to use Megasquirt why not to use EDIS ignition?
It's working very fine with MS.
Look at wildbros site, they using a 36-1 trigger wheel as well.
You can get EDIS from salvage yard for very low price.

 

[satariel666]

I believe those intake manifolds have even SMALLER ID than do the stk V-max intake manifolds. The problem with those intakes would be no available TB's small enough to fit. Also one would not want to go smaller anyway. In fact, the stk 35mm V-max carbs would be a restriction if the V-boost was not used.

Agree.
They may be about 33mm ID i believe, however the cross-section of stk ellipsis intake chanels is about 94 mm2 and the cross-section for 35mm ID is about
96 mm2.
I beileve that most important thing here is the shape and size from intake chanels.
IMHO there is no big difrence with 33 or 35 on intake ID also its simple to machine any TB joint.
Saaarloos used 38mmm ID TB's with turbocharged
setup. IMO 42mm ID TB's size are enough to feed V-max ebgine.
Its only IMO and i can be wrong

Look here:

Its in polish but i can tell you that guy bored the engine to 1680, changed the camshafts and corrected size of intake and exaust channels and also
combustion chambers were corrected. Guy get 203,7 RWHP :clapping:
Without any super/turbocharger.

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Hello to all,

Time for a little update...

Been burning the midnight oil on this project... I'm really excited about getting this project done! There will be lots of goodies that will come, once the basics are accomplished.

After a lot of looking, asking and studying. Mark and I agree the E8 or one of the Haltech Platinum series ECU's is the way to go. Why reinvent the wheel? The Megasquirt will probably work, but going to the electronic board level to get something to work is not for me. The E8 is loaded with feature content and will do the job just right. Haltech has a forum with loads of helpful people and some are doing some pretty crazy **** with their units. Sooo my confidence level is high.

I'll post some pics of the throttle body mounting progress and give more info this evening.

Stay Tuned

 

[Nitrousbrother]

So where are the pictures :ummm:

Keep us informed !


I will soon place some pics on my website when I have time....

 

[TURBOVMAX]

So where are the pictures :ummm:

Keep us informed !


I will soon place some pics on my website when I have time....

Hey There,

Sorry I kinda divided the project up under 2 categories and assumed everyone knew. I did post some pics here: http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=6710&page=2

If you go to this location: http://www.vmaxforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=73

You will see discussions about the ECU and other topics. We plan to use the Haltech unit for the first go around. E8 and Platinum models.

I will finish machine the adapters by Sunday and show the first mountings of the 600 and 1000 throttle bodies Monday or sooner.

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Hey All,

We should give this guy a warm welcome! Nitrousbrother... is I think the first man to really do an EFI setup on the VMAX. Using GSXR TB's and Megasquirt as a controller. Here's a link to some of that info at his site.

http://www.saarloos.net/content/blogcategory/14/28/

 

[ssnsltd]

Nitrousbrother- welcome to the site and THANKS for you patient and thorough assistance answering EFI questions awhile back. .

 

[Birdoprey]

Well, i did progress a little. Modded the factory TCI bracket(cut off all unused brackets/tabs). Sprayed it w/ a little paint. Cut some alum i had and got the E8 mounted(w/ rubber stand-off's for viberation resistance). Got the GM map mounted to the tabs for the factory MAP(had to "reposition them"). I think it looks pretty nice. Got that sucker back in the bike(what a chore!). Can't really tell much from the pics, but it clears everything nice.

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Well, i did progress a little. Modded the factory TCI bracket(cut off all unused brackets/tabs). Sprayed it w/ a little paint. Cut some alum i had and got the E8 mounted(w/ rubber stand-off's for viberation resistance). Got the GM map mounted to the tabs for the factory MAP(had to "reposition them"). I think it looks pretty nice. Got that sucker back in the bike(what a chore!). Can't really tell much from the pics, but it clears everything nice. Its there to stay...

How does feel it to have done your first VMAX brain transplant? That's awesome my friend! It looks like it belongs. It should be interesting for us all to see what performance gains are to be had. Stock VMAX... your riding and tuning ability. How many miles do you have on your VMAX?

 

[Birdoprey]

33 or 34,000 IIRC.

 

[Birdoprey]

Got a little update. I ended up moving the Haltech E8. Thought i had it clearing everything but i forgot that i did'nt have the ignition switch bolted up! Well, it would'nt...so i rotated it 180deg and moved it back a little. Fits nice and the connectors are easier to reach than the way i had it before. I've been working on getting it wired up and powered up. Got the E8 wired and also got the Main/Ign/Fuel pump relays wired/mounted as well as the fuse block.
I also removed the fan switch and wired it through a relay. I'm using one of the E8's programmable outputs to control the fan, so i wired it to control the relay. The E8 has a test mode where you can turn each output on and off with your laptop. My kids thought that was the coolest thing they've seen...:eusa_dance:
Got ahead of myself there....after picking up a serial to usb adapter, i was able to power up the E8 and use my laptop to go online with it. Attatched is a screen shot. I changed the redline to 9500 for the display dash. The coolant temp and air temp sensors are not attatched so they are showing goofy readings.
Waiting on a few things in the mail and then i can hopefully make a little more progress...

 

[RagingMain]

I was wondering for those of us who have 4 different O2 sensor ports in their headers (me) can we (I) set up 4 different O2 sensors to individually control the respective injectors based on that particular O2 sensor reading.
Probably too much to ask :ummm: Or probably not even worth it???
Cheers

 

[Birdoprey]

Fargo,

The E8 is capable of individual cyl injection(sequential), but you can not adjust the injection individually per cyl. They do have a dual 02 sensor kit that allows the use to two 02's to be wired right in, though i don't see any gain on a 4cyl. The do have a "trim" module as an option that can be wired in and allows on the fly manual adjustment of fuel or ignition. I got one of these as it should help get the ignition and fuel in the ballpark more quickly.
I'm not sure if any of the other Haltech units have individual cyl trim.