Hot starting issues

[Calimus]

So I've read before that the Max is prone to heat soak issues with the starter. Well, since I live in the pit of hell (Georgia) I've started having that problem the last 2 days.

So, I know there is a way to beef up the wiring, possibly add a relay to help combat this. Though I would post here and see what/if any of you guy's have done to deal with this issue and what seems to work the best.

In my case if I let the bike cool for about 30min, starting is still weak, but she will start. So it's not a majoe issue if I'm stopping to eat somewhere, however, this doesn't work so well if all I want to do is pull over and take a quick piss. :th_stophierPeeingIn

 

[one2dmax]

So I've read before that the Max is prone to heat soak issues with the starter. Well, since I live in the pit of hell (Georgia) I've started having that problem the last 2 days.

So, I know there is a way to beef up the wiring, possibly add a relay to help combat this. Though I would post here and see what/if any of you guy's have done to deal with this issue and what seems to work the best.

In my case if I let the bike cool for about 30min, starting is still weak, but she will start. So it's not a majoe issue if I'm stopping to eat somewhere, however, this doesn't work so well if all I want to do is pull over and take a quick piss. :th_stophierPeeingIn

is your bike an 89 or older? If so you need to update the starter. If not you may not be charging as well as you can and a hot starter draws more current. You may want to upgrade a few electical components and do some grouning work.

Sean Morley

 

[maleko89]

Calimus, check out the heavy duty ground kit from www.vmaxbitz.com. I added this in addition to the usual charging system soldering fixes and hot starting isn't an issue. I thought about getting the late model 4-brush starter but can't justify it at this point.

Take care,

 

[Calimus]

My bike is a 97' w/18k miles (was only 14k in October when I bought it)


Sean, would ya mind filling me in on a few of the components to check/upgrade? Obviously the wiring is going to be one of them. Which is fine, I have no problem rewiring the system using better wire & connectors.


maleko89, thanks for the link. I checked it out and no offence to you or the UK boys at all, but for $38 + shipping, I'll spend the $5 for meterials and build it myself. It's a nice setup though and pretty much along the lines of what I was already planning to do.

I think I might add a relay to the circuit as well just for some added umph.

I figure I'll need to beef up a fair ammount of the wiring in the bike anyway as I'm planning on upgrading to a different headlight (soon as I can find one I like) so that I can see where the hell I'm going at night.

thx for the replies, keep em' coming if you have any ideas or thoughts to different ways to solve the issue. Right now it's our severar T-storm season so I can deal with having the bike down for a few days at a shot to play with different things.

 

[Calimus]

Time to revisit this. I have since made my own heavy ground rig. I used 6 & 8 guage wire and basicly built the same kit as the one offered on Vmaxbitz. This however, didn't solve me issues.

So, cold starts, no problem, drive for more then 5 miles and stop for gas, problem. Damn bike won't start back up till the coolent temps are only around 1/4 on the guage.

Could it be the battery? I've pulled it and checked it with my multimeter, it's showing a bit over 12v. However, it's a "parts unlimited" battery. Could be a **** brand for all I know. I was told they put a new battery in when I bought the bike. That could have been BS as well. I don't put this bike on a trickle charger because I ride it almost every day.

What else might it be folks? I know I need to fire the bike up and see what the alt is throwing, but since the batt is staying at a bit over 12v, I figured the alt must be doing it's thing.

As always, open to suggestions.

 

[Buster Hymen]

Time to revisit this. I have since made my own heavy ground rig. I used 6 & 8 guage wire and basicly built the same kit as the one offered on Vmaxbitz. This however, didn't solve me issues.

So, cold starts, no problem, drive for more then 5 miles and stop for gas, problem. Damn bike won't start back up till the coolent temps are only around 1/4 on the guage.

Could it be the battery? I've pulled it and checked it with my multimeter, it's showing a bit over 12v. However, it's a "parts unlimited" battery. Could be a **** brand for all I know. I was told they put a new battery in when I bought the bike. That could have been BS as well. I don't put this bike on a trickle charger because I ride it almost every day.

What else might it be folks? I know I need to fire the bike up and see what the alt is throwing, but since the batt is staying at a bit over 12v, I figured the alt must be doing it's thing.

As always, open to suggestions.

If you live near someone that has a VMax, see if you can borrow their battery to see if that makes a difference. No sense buying a new battery yours is OK. If it is not a battery issue, then it must be something with the starter.

 

[Calimus]

I've only seen one other Vmax in my area, and I haven't been able to track him down yet.

It couldn't hurt to replace the batt though, least then I'd know for sure. I need to look and see if they make the Gel batt's for the max. Maybe save a bit of weight and in a few more amps while I'm at it.

I'm hoping it's not the starter, I'm really not in the mood to walk into the dealer backwards with a tube of KY ready to go.

 

[Lew L]

My ZX11 was have a hot start problem a few months ago. New battery---- problem solved.:eusa_dance:
There is a wimpy crimp connector in the V-Max's wiring harnes. If your new wire loom didnt catch this one, it could be part of the problem. Check out www.vmaxoutlaw.com for the fix.

 

[mikemax04]

I've only seen one other Vmax in my area, and I haven't been able to track him down yet.

It couldn't hurt to replace the batt though, least then I'd know for sure. I need to look and see if they make the Gel batt's for the max. Maybe save a bit of weight and in a few more amps while I'm at it.

I'm hoping it's not the starter, I'm really not in the mood to walk into the dealer backwards with a tube of KY ready to go.

I'm pretty sure you can use a jump from a vehicle as long as the vehicle isn't running. The starter will only use what it can handle and not get damaged in the process. Just make sure that the donor vehicle is NOT running. If you try this when the bike is hot, you should get your answer. Another thing I've found on some new batteries is that the posts need a good wire brush job for them to make a good contact.

 

[Zewerr]

I've recently noticed I've been having this problem too. I bought my 02 back in November. And I usually just ride it one way non stop and shut if off. But the other day, I stopped in the convenience store and bought a drink. Came back out, and crank, crank, bleh!!!!. I had to push start it to get me the rest of the way to work (1/4 mile). I got there shut it off, worked for 8 hours, came back, and it cranked over like a champ!

I'm wondering if anyone has taken their bike in for this problem while it was still under factory warranty. It would seem like there would be a bulletin on it with a factory repair. When I bought my bike, I got an aftermarket warranty on it too, and I'm hoping that if there is a factory approved update, that they would be able to perform it under that warranty.

 

[Calimus]

Zewerr, thanks for the link, I had that one a while back but must have lost it. Tore the seat back off last night, figure I might break the solder out when I get home today and take care of that little issue.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I had this issue recently and it wasn't anything I thought it would be.

When the bike was hot it just did not want to start; I didnt really think it was the battery/charging/starting system because the engine would turn over just as fast as usual but it would not fire up as quickly.

First I thought it was the new Methanol gas were are getting in the Houston area-nope

I thought perhaps it was time for a carb rebuild so I decided to just make a laundry list of every possible cause and adress them all since the bike was due for some maintenance anyway.

Then of course I started chasing the electrical system.

Battery voltage not running-about 12.6volts-Good
Battery voltage running over about 2200RPM 14.1 volts-Great.
If the charging voltage at the battery is this high it is not the splice due to where it is located but I went ahead and dug it out of the harness and soldered it anyway.
I checked the rectifier inout and output voltages like the Service manual says...everything was good.

I checked the coils and pickups also according to the manual and they looked OK.

I went ahead and added some decent looking grounds from the rectifier, battery and starter to a central location just because I was in there...still did not fix my problem.

At that point I went ahead and pulled the carbs and took'em down to the last o-ring, cleaned everything and put it all back together.

I also replaced the plugs, wires, boots, radiator fluid, brake and clutch fluid and rear end fluid at this time also.

The bike RAN a hell of a lot better but still had a hot start problem.

What I DID find when I was doing all the electrical stuff was that three of the coils were swollen and cracked and split across the bottom....
I really was'nt sure this was my problem but wanting Dyna coils anyway I went ahead and ordered them.

I put everything back together with the old coils and ran it while I was waiting on my new Dyna coils.
Once I got them installed I have not had that problem a single time.....

I have heard of others that have had cracked coils and never had a problem....
Incidentally the Dyna coils are NOT a bolt in. More fabrication than I thought was needed to make them fit, not complicated just time consuming.....

 

[Calimus]

Wow, that would have been a bugger to track down.

My issue is a bit different, and looking back, I noticed that I didn't really define the issue.

When mine is hot, I can hit the key and baicly, nothing happens. Sometimes it will barely turn the starter over once. Mayby twice if it's in a good mood.

However, I've found a work around. I make sure the bike is in neutral, flip the kill switch on, hols the start button down with the right hand, turn the key on with the left. Fires right up every time, I figure it's the extra draw of the headlight adding to the problem.

Easy fix would just be a headlight cutoff switch. However, I'd rather fix the source. But that can wait till winter. For now I have a temp fix that will hold me over till then.

Might look into those coils at the same time though.

 

[maleko89]

The headlight is supposed to shut off when you hit the start problem. There's the problem.

 

[-Lee-]

Wow, that would have been a bugger to track down.

My issue is a bit different, and looking back, I noticed that I didn't really define the issue.

When mine is hot, I can hit the key and baicly, nothing happens. Sometimes it will barely turn the starter over once. Mayby twice if it's in a good mood.

However, I've found a work around. I make sure the bike is in neutral, flip the kill switch on, hols the start button down with the right hand, turn the key on with the left. Fires right up every time, I figure it's the extra draw of the headlight adding to the problem.

Easy fix would just be a headlight cutoff switch. However, I'd rather fix the source. But that can wait till winter. For now I have a temp fix that will hold me over till then.

Might look into those coils at the same time though.

Have you taken your handlebar switches apart and cleaned all of the contacts yet? It could be something as simple as this. It makes a difference.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

The headlight is supposed to shut off when you hit the start problem. There's the problem.

On a side note; The headlight shutting off when starting, and even more importantly shutting off when hitting the start button while in gear WITHOUT engaging the starter is one of the greatest "accidental" design bonuses on most motorcycles.

I use my start button to flash my headlight way more often than I have used the horn button. It's an excellent tool for "Waking up" drivers sitting iin the oncoming left turn lane or drivers pulling out into the roadway when you are pretty sure they are not seeing you.....

 

[Calimus]

The headlight is supposed to shut off when you hit the start problem. There's the problem.

It does. What I'm figuring is that since it comes on once the key is switched on, that initial drain on the electrical system is the straw that breaks the camels back. There is certainly something wrong with the system, but the headlight being on at initial start just puts that problem over the top.

I have looked at the switches, they were very clean. Not sure about the PO, but I keep the bike garaged, so it doesn't sit in the rain, but I know grit and such still gets up in there.

It's funny as so long as the bike sits long enough (about 20-30min) after being at normal running temp, it fires up just fine.

I'll find the problem, just need the weather to get cold enough to keep me off the bike long enough to look at it

 

[Lew L]

Hi Cal,
Guess I'm back on the battery kick.

• How old is the battery?

• Are the terminals clean and tight along with numerous ground attachments?

• Electrolite all the way up and good specific gravity?

As I have a winter here where I cannot ride for a few months I keep the battery on a float charger. How about you??? Abattery that has suffered a few full discharges is dying. High heat kills them also.
Good luck,
Lew

 

[Calimus]

Battery was new when I bought the bike (October 05) but it's a generic battery. Reguardless, it tests ok when cool, haven't tested it when hot though.

I have tested it while the bike is running and everything looks great.

I haven't looked yet (and maybe I should just start searching) but does anyone know if they make a Gel battery that fits the Max?

 

[Rusty McNeil]

It does. What I'm figuring is that since it comes on once the key is switched on, that initial drain on the electrical system is the straw that breaks the camels back. There is certainly something wrong with the system, but the headlight being on at initial start just puts that problem over the top.

I have looked at the switches, they were very clean. Not sure about the PO, but I keep the bike garaged, so it doesn't sit in the rain, but I know grit and such still gets up in there.

It's funny as so long as the bike sits long enough (about 20-30min) after being at normal running temp, it fires up just fine.

I'll find the problem, just need the weather to get cold enough to keep me off the bike long enough to look at it

It's not gonna fix your problem but a headlight kill switch can really save your battery if you sit and idle a lot.I use mine whenever it's warmiing up in the morning.

At idle with the headlight on your battery is being drained instead of charged. The charging output doesn't get high enough to overcome system load until around 2000RPM.

The following is from what I have experienced on my own bike.


If you have a meter check your battery in the morning before you have ever turned the key on. Voltage should be around 12.6 or better

Check it again after turning the key on with the headlight on. Voltage should drop but not a WHOLE lot. maybe down around 12 volts even.

Leave the meter on the battery and try to start it. The voltage should drop but not below maybe between 11.0-11.5 or so.

If the voltage takes a dive to less than 10 volts or so your battery is toast.

If the bike acts reluctant to turn over but the voltage is holding up pretty good then more than likely it is a bad connection anywhere in between the start relay and the starter, or the brushes etc. in the starter.

It is possible for even a battery that shows 12.6 or better go to **** when you put a load on it.

Once you get the bike started see what the battery voltage is after running at 2000rpm for a couple of minutes. A good charging system will build to 14 volts or better as long as it's not fighting a bad battery. Even a bad battery will usually charge up to this value but will quickly fall off when the engine is turned off.
If you are still not sure if the system is charging leave the seat loose so you can easily get it off, take it for a 30 minute ride and then check it as quickly as you can before it has a chance to fall off.
This should give you a fair idea of whether it's your battery, the charging sytem, or bad connections.