Lycan Engine Build

[TURBOVMAX]

satariel666

Forgot to answer one of your questions... the big end is the same as the Vmax (38mm) with the bearings installed. The Busa rod is wider by about 1mm which isn't a big deal as the rod will be milled to the Vmax width without disturbing the bearings. So the crankshaft would be ground to the Busa's specs. Who knows maybe Suzuki has better bearing material.

 

[satariel666]

Remember, "CRAZY" was supouse to mean...exctrentic, head with full of ideas and to short life to finalize them all.
Dot wanna to insult your mechanical abilities. Respect here.
Im just an young guy with bad english whos always laughing.

Ive toasted 2 v-max cranks already. Even one with overdrive oil pump gearing and extra oil tips(Seans idea).
It was always cyl nr 3.

In both cases bearings where flatted much and creates big clerance at the journal and you know how it ends.
I've always wonder whats was the couse? Hot oil or to low pressure?

Curently running with 1300cc with pump overdrive and oil tips.
I do not need to run hard to see red light, just a rough ride.
Have 70si at idle when engine is cold and about 20psi when hot.

I guess another v-max engine issue, right after rods.

I like your idea. But puting an dry lubrication system into v-max sounds more crazy then evrything alse. Sure it can be done but is requires lot of changes inside the engine and it never be truly dry system. So if you have money and time for this then i will gladly see the results
Otec has a great aftermarket larger oil sump but its very costly.
I think i may steal you idea and fabricate my own oil pan LOL
Thats similar to modes that stunts riders use to modify in thier bikes. OIl is always at the back of pan.


I wonder, how much more pressure we can get from stock v-max oil pump?
Spraying the oil into pistons may cost you some psi's...

 

[satariel666]

satariel666

Forgot to answer one of your questions... the big end is the same as the Vmax (38mm) with the bearings installed. The Busa rod is wider by about 1mm which isn't a big deal as the rod will be milled to the Vmax width without disturbing the bearings. So the crankshaft would be ground to the Busa's specs. Who knows maybe Suzuki has better bearing material.

Great.
Definitly i will try that mod at winter. Thank for the priceless infos.

At your case with turbo setup low compresion ratio is welcome but i do not plan to instal any boost device so, must do something with that stoke difrence.
The best way is to get custom pistons.
Also can get the material from the block and from the heads but one problem may happen here. Chain cam tensioner may be to short

 

[Birdoprey]

I am a little miffed by your theory. If you're going to use shorter rods with stock pistons, you'll need to increase the distance between TDC and BDC in order to add to the stroke dimensions, right?

What confuses me is how do you mod the crank to achieve this? Don't you end up with a more fragile crank with less metal where the big end bearings go, or are you planning on forging a new crank from scratch? :ummm:

When you stroke a crank, you offset grind it. Thats how its done. To get 8mm additional stroke, you grind one side down 4mm and add 4mm to the other side. By moving the rod journal 4mm, you gain 4mm up top and 4mm at the bottom thus gaining the 8mm of stroke. Since the piston is now 4mm too high at the top, we plan to run Busa rods which are 4mm shorter than the stk V-max rods. This will put the piston right at the same deck height as with the stk crank/rods/pistons.
Yes the crank is built up on the side thats adding the stroke and its ground down from stk on the side its taken away. The crank grinders are the ones that know whats safe and whats not and they make that call. Normally, there is plenty of room unless getting wild with stroke

 

[naughtyG]

Interesting. So how is it built up? Is it like, weld some metal on then grind it back to spec? Is that really as strong as a crank forged from one piece of metal? I thought that was quite important for a component that takes such a beating, but as you said, the crank grinders should know what they're doing. To me it still seems like the weak link in this setup,,

 

[RagingMain]

When you stroke a crank, you offset grind it. Thats how its done. To get 8mm additional stroke, you grind one side down 4mm and add 4mm to the other side. By moving the rod journal 4mm, you gain 4mm up top and 4mm at the bottom thus gaining the 8mm of stroke. Since the piston is now 4mm too high at the top, we plan to run Busa rods which are 4mm shorter than the stk V-max rods. This will put the piston right at the same deck height as with the stk crank/rods/pistons.
Yes the crank is built up on the side thats adding the stroke and its ground down from stk on the side its taken away. The crank grinders are the ones that know whats safe and whats not and they make that call. Normally, there is plenty of room unless getting wild with stroke

This makes perfect sense now. In the article you posted it talked about the way I know to stroke an engine, using longer rods and moving the wrist pin, but in one of the early posts you talked about shorter rods. I was WAY confused.
I am excited for this because I have an extra engine I can play around with.:clapping:

 

[RagingMain]

Interesting. So how is it built up? Is it like, weld some metal on then grind it back to spec? Is that really as strong as a crank forged from one piece of metal? I thought that was quite important for a component that takes such a beating, but as you said, the crank grinders should know what they're doing. To me it still seems like the weak link in this setup,,

Is there not enough room to do it the "normal" way with some longer rods and different pistons???

 

[Birdoprey]

Interesting. So how is it built up? Is it like, weld some metal on then grind it back to spec? Is that really as strong as a crank forged from one piece of metal? I thought that was quite important for a component that takes such a beating, but as you said, the crank grinders should know what they're doing. To me it still seems like the weak link in this setup,,

Yes, they weld it up. The stk cranks are cast, not forged. There are thousands of strokers running around and living good lives. Lots of attention needs to be paid to balancing/oiling and rpm in order to live a long time. Those same things can be said of any motor. You'd be suprised how many go with a larger bore and never balance to suit. Won't last as long or make as much hp.
Like Gary has mentioned before, even he had crank problems with his V-max early on. Once he addressed the oiling situation(new pan design was "the fix"), he never had anymore crank issues. His heavy beast has been over 170mph in the 1/4mi too! That was with HIM riding...talk about stress!:biglaugh:

 

[Birdoprey]

Is there not enough room to do it the "normal" way with some longer rods and different pistons???

Fargo,

Longer rods and different pistons alone does not add anything to the stroke. Thats whats called a "Long Rod" setup. Supposed to add leverage on the crank and increase the "dwell time" the piston spends near TDC. To stroke a motor, you MUST add it with the crank. No other way to do it.

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Remember, "CRAZY" was spouse to mean...exctrentic, head with full of ideas and to short life to finalize them all.
Dot wanna to insult your mechanical abilities. Respect here.
Im just an young guy with bad english whos always laughing.

Ive toasted 2 v-max cranks already. Even one with overdrive oil pump gearing and extra oil tips(Seans idea).
It was always cyl nr 3.

In both cases bearings where flatted much and creates big clerance at the journal and you know how it ends.

Curently running with 1300cc with pump overdrive and oil tips.
I do not need to run hard to see red light, just a rough ride.
Have 70si at idle when engine is cold and about 20psi when hot.

I guess another v-max engine issue, right after rods.

I like your idea. But puting an dry lubrication system into v-max sounds more crazy then evrything alse. Sure it can be done but is requires lot of changes inside the engine and it never be truly dry system.
Otec has a great aftermarket larger oil sump but its very costly.
I think i may steal you idea and fabricate my own oil pan LOL

I wonder, how much more pressure we can get from stock v-max oil pump?
Spraying the oil into pistons may cost you some psi's...

No offense taken... we use the same expression here. The oil system more relies on volume. If the pump isn't large enough you won't get the volume of oil needed. Most times spinning an oil pump faster has negative effects like causing the pump to cavitate and build heat. So spraying the pistons will require a higher volume pump. The dry sump I'll do will be truly a dry sump and most of the required oil re-routing will be done in the pan. I do think that the pan is sufficient for your needs and feel free to copy anything I do. I feel that's it's a compliment.

 

[satariel666]

Not sure but i was always thinking that v-max crank is nitricated.
That surface will be destroyed when welding. Need to nitricate whole crank for a new. Personaly do not like this way.
Of course people use to go with that way in my country but thier cranks want lived long. Maybe its a matter of engeneering

 

[RagingMain]

Fargo,

Longer rods and different pistons alone does not add anything to the stroke. Thats whats called a "Long Rod" setup. Supposed to add leverage on the crank and increase the "dwell time" the piston spends near TDC. To stroke a motor, you MUST add it with the crank. No other way to do it.

Gotcha, makes sense. The bigger the circle around the crank shaft centerline the more leverage created.

 

[Birdoprey]

Gotcha, makes sense. The bigger the circle around the crank shaft centerline the more leverage created.

Forgive me if i'm mistaken, but i think we are still on different pages. The longer rods decrease the rod angle. That is to say that when the crank is 90deg down from TDC(1/2 way down and thus straight out to one side), the angle of the rod is less when the rod is longer(since the top of the rod is higher than before). Since the pressure in the cyl is pushing the piston straight down, the rod has more leverage on the crank the closer to straight up and down it is(less of an angle).
Stroking makes the circle bigger which increases the cc's(makes motor BIGGER). It also allows the combustion pressure more time to push on the crank which increases tq(and hp at that rpm).

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Not sure but i was always thinking that v-max crank is nitricated.
That surface will be destroyed when welding. Need to nitricate whole crank for a new. Personaly do not like this way.
Of course people use to go with that way in my country but thier cranks want lived long. Maybe its a matter of engeneering

I don't think the stock crank is nitrided. We'll get into the crank finishing later on.

 

[RagingMain]

Forgive me if i'm mistaken, but i think we are still on different pages. The longer rods decrease the rod angle. That is to say that when the crank is 90deg down from TDC(1/2 way down and thus straight out to one side), the angle of the rod is less when the rod is longer(since the top of the rod is higher than before). Since the pressure in the cyl is pushing the piston straight down, the rod has more leverage on the crank the closer to straight up and down it is(less of an angle).
Stroking makes the circle bigger which increases the cc's(makes motor BIGGER). It also allows the combustion pressure more time to push on the crank which increases tq(and hp at that rpm).

This is what I meant, just didnt say it properly:biglaugh:
Cheers

 

[Birdoprey]

This is what I meant, just didnt say it properly:biglaugh:
Cheers

No problem buddy. Was just thrown by the "bigger circle". Same page now!:eusa_dance:

 

[satariel666]

No offense taken... we use the same expression here. The oil system more relies on volume. If the pump isn't large enough you won't get the volume of oil needed. Most times spinning an oil pump faster has negative effects like causing the pump to cavitate and build heat. So spraying the pistons will require a higher volume pump. The dry sump I'll do will be truly a dry sump and most of the required oil re-routing will be done in the pan. I do think that the pan is sufficient for your needs and feel free to copy anything I do. I feel that's it's a compliment.

Well ya know, somethimes i must think twice what im posting here, difrent cultures and difrent peoples and its easy enslut someone without knowing it.

I forgot that theres also volume with the pressure.
So when the pressure will be to high oil gets hot and basicly you may get empty pan couse oil will not return to pan in time. Also pump may suck some sir there. Im i right?

So the solution is to fabircate that kind of pan that you have or similar so, some oil will always remain at the rear on the pan. More, oil cooler can be very useful here. I can see an oil line at your picture. Is that oil cooler line?
Or turbo cooling line?

Exatrep sells great radiator with oil cooler set but when i see the price...:bang head:

Sure ill do and will fabricate that kind of pan(or something similiar).
Its exlenent idea
Maybe you have more photos?

 

[satariel666]

I don't think the stock crank is nitrided. We'll get into the crank finishing later on.

When i've rebuilded mine first engine failure i posted some info in the "Broken engine parts thread", you may look there.

Anyway firstble i plan to repair my crank via one machine shop here, they have very good opinion localy. The crank have big crack over whole journal, visible only at magnafluxed. No matter with that crank, the point is what the machine shop owner said to me. He said that mine crank is nitricated and if i want to repair it i need to weld it, grind it and nitricate it for a new.
Hes obivioulsy not an oracle but hes gringind the cranks about 30 yeras.
Just an tought.


So i will not go that far with the crank stroking but im highly intrest with busa rods. Basicly they 4,5mm shorter so that means i need higher pistons.
I can take 1mm from the block and some more from the heads. Need to verify that with heads.

The question is, what will happen with that mod. Shorter rod with higher piston? Good and bad things?


However i have another crank that is slightly bent at cyl nr 3. It can be a good material for stroking. But must check him with magnaflux.
Its all depends on the price...

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Well ya know, somethimes i must think twice what im posting here, difrent cultures and difrent peoples and its easy enslut someone without knowing it.

I forgot that theres also volume with the pressure.
So when the pressure will be to high oil gets hot and basicly you may get empty pan couse oil will not return to pan in time. Also pump may suck some sir there. Im i right?

So the solution is to fabircate that kind of pan that you have or similar so, some oil will always remain at the rear on the pan. More, oil cooler can be very useful here. I can see an oil line at your picture. Is that oil cooler line?
Or turbo cooling line?

Exatrep sells great radiator with oil cooler set but when i see the price...:bang head:

Sure ill do and will fabricate that kind of pan(or something similiar).
Its exlenent idea
Maybe you have more photos?

The pan was made from a solid piece of aluminum but you can fabricate one using the stock pan and sheet metal. The trick is to get all of the oil out of the aluminum prior to welding to it. The best way of doing that is to take it to a shop that does hot vapor degreasing. People who do aircraft welding generally have those types of cleaning systems.

Drag Racers have been doing this with their cars for a long time. One of the main advantages of doing it is to keep the oil level away from the crankshaft so it dosen't get thrown around by the crank. Another is having the pickup at the rear of the pan down low. That way under acceleration the oil is where it goes naturally and is less aerated.

Think about when you change your oil and the hot oil is in the waste container. It's hard to move around because the hot oil is so thin viscosity wise. I usually get it all over the floor.

 

[TURBOVMAX]

When i've rebuilded mine first engine failure i posted some info in the "Broken engine parts thread", you may look there.

Anyway firstble i plan to repair my crank via one machine shop here, they have very good opinion localy. The crank have big crack over whole journal, visible only at magnafluxed. No matter with that crank, the point is what the machine shop owner said to me. He said that mine crank is nitricated and if i want to repair it i need to weld it, grind it and nitricate it for a new.
Hes obivioulsy not an oracle but hes gringind the cranks about 30 yeras.
Just an tought.


So i will not go that far with the crank stroking but im highly intrest with busa rods. Basicly they 4,5mm shorter so that means i need higher pistons.
I can take 1mm from the block and some more from the heads. Need to verify that with heads.

The question is, what will happen with that mod. Shorter rod with higher piston? Good and bad things?


However i have another crank that is slightly bent at cyl nr 3. It can be a good material for stroking. But must check him with magnaflux.
Its all depends on the price...

Good crankshaft shops won't touch a crankshaft that has cracks.
In fact that's the first thing that they check before they start. People who do that kind of work give welded stroker cranks a bad name. Don't know why you would go through all of that work and not take advantage of having more displacement with the stroker. Your best bet would be to just buy the Falicon or Carrillo rods and call it a day. The options money wise kind of equal out $1000.00 for rods or a $1000.00 for a stroker crank. The advantage of the stroker with the Busa rods is you get more displacement.


Your bent crank would be a good candidate for a stroker provided it isn't cracked. During the process of doing a welded stroker crank... the crankshaft must be straightened after the weld process and then ground.

I think it's important that you all know that I'm not trying to talk anybody into doing anything. This project is something I'm doing for myself and the last thing I need is for people to follow along and then have a failure and blame me for taking them down that road. Building a high performance engine is what it is. I've got the broken parts to prove it. I would like you all to understand by the end of this project exactly how to put a standard engine together so that it's reliable.