Morley's Muscle Kit and Nitrous Install

[QuarterHorse]

The progressive controller WILL help ET and performance like Sean said, it won't shock the chassis or tire. All I'm sayin' is regular maintenance on the solenoids is a must if your going to use it a lot.

Not trying to detour you from using it at all. Let us know how it works out. I'm excited to see you spray it!

What I am curious about is pulling timing on these bikes while spraying. How is it done when you start to spray more and more?

 

[lankeeyankee]

Whats the latest and greatest with your NOS Jeff, have you ran the dragstrip yet, any new numbers?

 

[lankeeyankee]

The progressive controller WILL help ET and performance like Sean said, it won't shock the chassis or tire. All I'm sayin' is regular maintenance on the solenoids is a must if your going to use it a lot.

Not trying to detour you from using it at all. Let us know how it works out. I'm excited to see you spray it!

What I am curious about is pulling timing on these bikes while spraying. How is it done when you start to spray more and more?

Thats what I have been figuring out. I think most are going with the programmable box that sells for around 300 bucks and it gives you different timing curves.
I am trying to figure out how the vac timing advance works on the VMAX and trick it to reatard when NOS is activated, no one here seems to know how it works. technically wise.

 

[4gasem]

Thats what I have been figuring out. I think most are going with the programmable box that sells for around 300 bucks and it gives you different timing curves.
I am trying to figure out how the vac timing advance works on the VMAX and trick it to reatard when NOS is activated, no one here seems to know how it works. technically wise.

There's something on the internet that shows you how to build and advancer so maybe you could make it do the opposite??:ummm:

 

[lankeeyankee]

There's something on the internet that shows you how to build and advancer so maybe you could make it do the opposite??:ummm:

Did a google search "VMAX TIMING" no luck with what you were referring to.
Do you have a link:gotsearch:

 

[hubeerjw]

Whats the latest and greatest with your NOS Jeff, have you ran the dragstrip yet, any new numbers?

I'm gonna try to make it tomorrow night... didn't make it last week... got windy and pretty cold. We'll see what happens and I'll post my results.

Jeff

 

[maleko89]

I have an ITAM (ignition timing advance module) that I got from vmaxbitz.com. There are 3 settings. Stock, 3* and 5* advance. It basically fools the pressure sensor into thinking there is more vacuum.

In my How to Change Main Jet sticky you can see it when the carbs are removed. It's sitting on top of the ignitor.

http://vboost.users1.50megs.com/advance.htm

 

[lankeeyankee]

I have an ITAM (ignition timing advance module) that I got from vmaxbitz.com. There are 3 settings. Stock, 3* and 5* advance. It basically fools the pressure sensor into thinking there is more vacuum.

In my How to Change Main Jet sticky you can see it when the carbs are removed. It's sitting on top of the ignitor.

http://vboost.users1.50megs.com/advance.htm

Did you notice any gains with it? I am looking to retard the timing not advance it. How much was it?

 

[maleko89]

Midrange is a bit better when going to WOT. He isn't selling it yet. He was and then stopped. When I asked if he had anymore to sell he gave me one to try and keep. He only asked for a product report. Last I heard he was going to put it back in production.

 

[lankeeyankee]

Midrange is a bit better when going to WOT. He isn't selling it yet. He was and then stopped. When I asked if he had anymore to sell he gave me one to try and keep. He only asked for a product report. Last I heard he was going to put it back in production.

Seems very simple. Thank you that was exactly the information I was needing to figure out how to retard the timing with the NOS activation. :clapping:

 

[hubeerjw]

O.k. so if I am reading that link and understanding it correctly, we would need to remove some of the resistance instead of adding to it... by removing resistance, the voltage would increase. I see there is a 4k ohm resistor pack, and we could use a switch to redirect the sensor output through a different resistor pack (maybe 3.6k ohms.... approximately 10% reduction) This would be opposite of what the timing advance mod was doing. Or we could also set it up so when you hit the NOS, a certain voltage would be sent to the ignitor (and basically bypass the advance unit by putting a relay in). You could use a potentiometer to adjust the voltage for the proper retard. It would be pretty neat to set it up on the dyno spray a little gas and adjust the voltage until you get it dialed in.

Let me know and I can try to draw up some schematics if needed.... it makes sense in my head but when I try to put it on paper I might find out I have been talking over my head.

Hope this helps,

Jeff

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I have an ITAM (ignition timing advance module) that I got from vmaxbitz.com. There are 3 settings. Stock, 3* and 5* advance. It basically fools the pressure sensor into thinking there is more vacuum.

In my How to Change Main Jet sticky you can see it when the carbs are removed. It's sitting on top of the ignitor.

http://vboost.users1.50megs.com/advance.htm

I though MORE vaccum equaled LESS ADVANCE since vaccum is highest at idle and lowest at WOT.

I know a motion-pro will suck the mercury down when you crack the throttle a little bit but that's an initial "suck"; once the intake tract starts flowing the Vaccum decreases i'm pretty sure.

FYI if it helps anyone, the sensor that feeds the signal into the TCI works on 5 volts operation. It has a ground, a constant 5volt signal/supply from the TCI, and a 0-5 volt reference back to the TCI proportional to Vaccum. maybe that will help someone figure this out.

Most automotive sensors work on a 0-5 volt reference, but in real application the numbers are usually not all the way down to 0volts or all the way up to a full 5 volts. if your going to design something it would be a good idea to get a meter and test the unit at idle thru WOT.

Once you know the actual values you can use a Mity-vac or something to play with it instead of running the shit out of the motor in nuetral.

The reason I discovered all this is in setting up F/I on a couple of different cars.

 

[maleko89]

When you whack the throttle open the vacuum initially drops and then rises. The gage readings on your sync meter will rise too for a bit. I'm going to check but as I increase throttle the gage goes up which means more vacuum. According to that article, once a 80 mm of vacuum is achieved the maximum supplemental advance is applied.

The purpose of the ITAM is to fool the ignitor into thinking more vacuum is present than really is. This allows max advance to be applied at lower rpms than normal.

 

[maleko89]

According to the manual the output voltage of the sensor should be abou 2 volts. It drops to around 1.6 at idle.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I haven't looked at the manual, I was going by the fact that these vaccum sensors operate linearly from 0-5 across the full scale of thier design vaccum or vaccum-boost.

I don't know what the scale is on the Vmax but the sensor is a very generic type I've seen in a lot of applications.

They are available in many different scaling depending on the application and the output is, or should span 0-5 across the full scale of design pressure.

In true application of course the output is dependent on operating LOAD conditions.

OK, I just looked in the manual, and from what I'm seeing the sensor is a VACcum/Boost sensor

Full scale is from Vaccum to Full Pressure

.5 volts at 600mm hg Vaccum and 4.9 volts at 600mm hg Pressure

In terms of PSI the full scale is from 11.5psi negative to 11.5 psi positive

The 2 volts is a "shelf" state read at atmospheric pressure or "zero" pressure.

1.6 volts at idle is lower on the scale and "In Vaccum"

According to the manual I have the supply voltage is 12 volts, which makes me wrong on the 5 volt supply.

I could have sworn i'd seen a 5 volt supply to the sensor from the TCI, maybe I had too many beers that day...



As far as our earleir discussion about vaccum versus throttle posistion, from what I've seen on several vehicles running manifold vaccum guages (they used to be popular back in the 70's-80's as "fuel economy" gauges) Vaccum is at it's highest when the engine is sucking against a closed or partially closed throttle, Even tho' engine speed is higher when the throttle is more open, the engine is not having to "suck" thru a restriction; thus at higher RPMs it's lower.

I've got a Vaccum guage I'd like to install just to see what's really going on. Maybe even feed the signal from the sensor into my wideband commander, data log it and make a table of vaccum versus RPM at WOT; might be kinda cool...

Vaccum readings are VERY load dependent, so I don't think readings in neutral are probably going to reflect operating condidtions.

The load dependent thing is the whole reason Vaccum advance is used in addition to RPM advance, which can't sense load.

 

[hubeerjw]

Well boys and girls...I think I finally got the funny gas to work tonight... my bottle pressure was only around 800psi, but at least I saw an improvement. I was able to get in 9 runs at the 1/8 mile track tonight and had a blast. I really wanted to break 100mph on just the motor, but 98.x was all I could get out of her. I'm starting to learn how to launch it a little better and I will have some movie files to post soon.

I removed my horn switch for the NOS and am only using the full throttle switch for activating the nitrous.

Here were my results: This was pass number 9 through 17 on the Vmax and in my life.

RT: 0.1879
60': 1.7993
1/8 ET: 7.2654
1/8 MPH: 98.27

RT: 0.1956
60': 1.8946
1/8 ET: 7.3577
1/8 MPH: 98.58

RT: 0.2015
60': 1.8383
1/8 ET: 7.3007
1/8 MPH: 98.30
I tried to spray that pass and nothing... damn fuel pressure safety switch!

RT: 0.0900
60': 1.8393
1/8 ET: 7.0897
1/8 MPH: 103.69
NOS was starting to work, I think I started at a 30%-100% in 2.5 seconds

RT: -0.0326 (oops)
60': 1.7649
1/8 ET: 7.0408
1/8 MPH: 103.64
Shot again, I think I went from 50% to 100% in 2 seconds

RT: 0.1647
60': 1.8086
1/8 ET: 7.2788
1/8 MPH: 98.90
I went back to just the motor to work on my launch and to try and get 100mph on the motor alone... didn't get there.

RT: 0.2207
60': 1.6999 (I was hoping to get into the 1.6s!!!.. only took me 15 passes)
1/8 ET: 6.9372
1/8 MPH: 105.29
I wasn't going to use nitrous, but then a Harley Screaming Eagle V-Rod pulls up next to me... one of those off-the-shelf drag bikes, so I quickly turned the valve to open on my nitrous bottle and see what that bike has. Well he beat me in time and MPH, but the win went to me.... didn't understand that one, but his result was:
RT: 0.3096 (I beat him on this)
60': 1.7630 (I beat him on this too)
1/8 ET: 6.8911 (damn... he got me, but it was close)
1/8 MPH: 106.66 (double turds!)

My last run of the night and 17th of my life was:
RT: 0.1061
60': 1.7841
1/8 ET: 7.2826
1/8 MPH: 98.12
Back to just motor... trying to get to 100mph

All in all a good night! I missed 2nd in one of my runs with NOS, and had a pretty decent spark shower come out the exhaust... have it on film as well and will post it when I can get it off the camcorder.

I'm going to BED!

 

[4gasem]

You beat him on the hole shot!

Good job!

 

[QuarterHorse]

Excellent results!

 

[lankeeyankee]

Nice progress Jeff Your close if not in the 10 second VMAX club
Found a timeslip from last yr when I was running nitrous on my 2003 engine w-o a progressive controller and hitting the NOS in 2nd gear
I still havent recieved my NOS hoses in yet for this new motor which feels like it has more potential than the 03 did
Are you strapping your front end down when you get to the track


60 FT 1.556
330 FT 4.134
1-8 ET 6.304
1-8 MPH 112.63

 

[lankeeyankee]

Time Slip 03 VMAX w NOS 2007