V-Max Speed Wobble (ran it up to 115mph and...)

[Gtista]

Seems like he is going through the perils of the damned. I had no idea how fortunate I was. 44k miles on the 2005 Vmax, major low and high speed wobbles. Tore down the front end, replaced the steering head bearings (outer races resembled railroad tracks -- grossly over tightened somewhere in the past), rebuilt the forks since I had them out anyway (new bushings, oil and dust seals), properly torqued the steering head bearings and everything else on reassembly -- wobbles completely gone.

Not issues up to at least 100 mph. One run up. Those sorts of speeds on public roads in Maryland show a death wish in my view, or at least a desire to lose your license and shell out lots of fine $$. Track days are the right place for those sorts of speeds.

 

[Shuriken]

The nice thing is that I can always just go get another bike. I don't feel obligated to resolve this issue, I have enjoyed the process. Learned a ton along the way and have heard from a lot of great guys on this forum. Additionally, I have indeed resolved some issues I wouldn't have otherwise touched.

The best thing so far from all of the toil has been the braking. Stainless brake lines front and rear and rebuilding all 3 calipers and replacing rotors has been revolutionary.

New tires. New bearings all around. Fixed sloppy swingarm. New front and rear springs. Carb rebuild. All of this is good and I have not personally ridden a 40 year-old bike that runs better. Perhaps this is why I have been a little obsessive about the front end: it's really the only thing left to resolve!

Last night, I snugged up the steering head just a little more but still have the 45mph decel wobble so tonight, I will increment slightly tighter, repeat the bounce test, etc., and test again. This is easy enough to do. It takes about 30 minutes to readjust and test ride.

In the state of configuration it was last in, before I started over again, I was able to ride up to 95 and faster with little issue, under the right conditions. No loose clothing buffeting in the wind, completely relaxed riding position and feather grip on the bars, etc. Shifting weight rearward helps and a passenger / extra weight negates all issues.

I don't think I've caused any additional problems. In fact, I am certain the bike is much safer now for casual riding. Besides readjusting the head bearings to eliminate 45mph decel wobble, there are a number of things left to try:

• fork brace
• ME888 (on the assumption of them being flatter) or other tires without any centerline tread groove
• and finally, a few combinations of lowering

At that point, it might be time to look for an addition to the stable or for me to put on 50lbs of weight.....

 

[brian hicks]

Was out tonight and did 100mph but it weaved and I quickly slowed down. I can feel the frame wobble when I go over bumps. I think it's a combination of things. Frame, suspension, bearings, maybe tyres, maybe shaft drive also. I've done just about everything except change my Avons for Dunlops. That will be my next move when the time is right. By the way...there are no weights in the ends of the bars so maybe that would be worth experimenting with.

 

[for_gdw]

Following this thread, I bought mine a few weeks ago, already done headset bearing and yes it did help. But feels like the bike goes into a flex about 90mph, noticeable more on a slight curve. Could it be tires?
I am a lump, so maybe that doesnt help with the frame flex issues. Going to look at engine mounts and maybe swap for Derlin ones

 

[Shuriken]

I think it's a combination of things.

For some of us, it has to be.

For others, one thing will solve the problem and they declare that the source of all speed wobbles/instability is the thing that resolved it for that person. This can make things very confusing to a person who is just casually working on the problem.

If there were an organized ride where 20 guys show up and swap rides for a mile, I think it would be much easier to find results. If all 19 bikes handle fine except mine, for example, then I suspect a bent frame or some other completely anomalous cause.

I've done enough ride testing now and one-at-a-time changes that if I were to ride any other vmax bikes for even a mile at a speed of only 60mph, I would be able to distinguish any differences right away... immediately. I've ridden other bikes recently (and at least 40 different bikes over the years), such as a friend's BMW and also even a Buell. The BMW front end felt slightly noodly given quick oscillating steering inputs but it immediately settled down; the inputs didn't translate through the frame from front to rear. That is an noticeably obvious difference right away. His bike is stable to 140.

My feeling on my own ride is that the wobble begins entirely at the front end and then translates backward. Trying to swap shocks and swingarm bearings and rear wheels and tires should help it settle down or maybe help with severity but after all the repairs and experiments that I've done, I'm just right back at the beginning - the front end.

If any of you have ridden basic bicycles on the road, let's say a road bicycle, you may know the feeling of having quick steering combined with large diameter rims with narrow tires and a shallow rake/trail angle: steering inputs, especially at low speed, make the bike feel like it wants to fall over into turns. However, if you then ride the same bike or similar but instead with fat tires (i.e., fat tire bikes), the feel may be quite noticeably different just with a tire change alone.

Since I'm refocusing back on the front end, I'll be trying to learn how much difference the front tire can make regarding the wobble. The 3 most obvious things to consider regarding the front tire would be:

• air pressure
  • I've experimented with this but with the current brand of Shinko 230 tires, lowering the PSI has increased stability and increasing PSI has reduced stability. This makes me wonder if the lower pressure makes the profile flatter and contact patch larger, which leads to the next thing.... profile!
• tire profile
  • The Shinko 230 felt entirely more responsive vs the worn ME880s that were on the bike. The profiles feel more curved and the in-town handling was immediately improved. However, high speed steering sensitivity also improved, making the front end feel less stable at speed.
• tread pattern
  • The Shinko 230s also use a wavy center groove tread pattern and the ME880s and ME888s do not. I don't know if this is translating negatively in my situation but my gut is telling me that it might.

Sean has stated that he feels the ME880/888 tires are the best all around tires for the Max. Unfortunately, they are on the expensive side for tires. Additionally, some have also reported wobble with these tires as well as manufacturing defects. Many reviews I've studied indicate that they are less performant overall and definitely stick less in the rain. So yes, there are tradeoffs. Do you want to put your max into the curves or ride it fast in a straight line? The Shinko 230s feel outstanding from block to block and general riding. On my bike, they feel twitchy at high speed, despite their higher speed rating.

The ME888s are advertised as having a different contact patch and a 15% flatter profile for the heavier cruiser style bikes. By personal experience, when I removed the ME880s and replaced with Shinko 230s, I cut the ME880 front tire with a cutting disk and examined the profile mold and sidewalls. What was immediately apparent was that the ME880 front tire was much stiffer and had a thicker sidewall and tread base overall than the Shinko 230. The ME880 tire felt heavier and stiffer and stronger overall. My first impression was that I had made a mistake by buying a cheap Shinko of lesser material and thus lesser quality. Indeed, I can flex the Shinko tires right on the rim as they sit at full inflation pressure with my bare hands. I feel like the 230 tires are indeed softer, probably stickier, and definitely cheaper. But the bottom line is that might make them more performant for general use and curves and more twitchy at load on the freeway and at speed. Take with a grain of salt, these are just my observations and opinions. I am not a tire scientist.

So.... despite the cost of the ME888s, I am planning to swap out the Shinkos soon and mount up a set of ME888s anyway. That's a great (albeit expensive) way to be able to describe the difference between the inexpensive tire and the expensive tire, I guess. My hypothesis is that eliminating the wavy center groove, increasing the weight and stiffness of the tire sidewall, and flattening the profile further should settle down the front end a little more at speed. It will also give me the opportunity to reassess tire and wheel balance.

On a similar note, check out this Quora article regarding the speed wobble. This is an interesting take. Does the addition of more weight/passenger simply serve to keep the front tire more on the ground? Does more weight simply settle down the front springs, reducing bounce and increasing tire contact?

I have actually never found an example of a vmax owner who has done a swap to a modern (R1, hayabusa, etc.) front end and who has later reported a speed wobble. Maybe someone can find an example but, a front end swap would give you a modern fork, modern damping, larger fork diameter, better brakes, and of course, far more tire options. Or... in other words, a completely different set of engineering to keep the front tire on the ground and aligned straight ahead!

 

[brian hicks]

Could there be a combination of side flexing between the rear and front tyres which is disturbed by adding extra weight to the rear or by the rider shifting his weight further back in the seat? With different sized wheels it means that the tyres are rotating at different speeds but at some point the rotation of the 2 wheels are going to have some sort of of synchronicity. It could be that the 2 wheels become resonant at around 85-95Mph. I look forward to fitting dunlops at a later stage.

 

[Shuriken]

Could there be a combination of side flexing between the rear and front tyres which is disturbed by adding extra weight to the rear or by the rider shifting his weight further back in the seat? With different sized wheels it means that the tyres are rotating at different speeds but at some point the rotation of the 2 wheels are going to have some sort of of synchronicity. It could be that the 2 wheels become resonant at around 85-95Mph. I look forward to fitting dunlops at a later stage.

Very possible.

On front-wheel-drive cars, I have always tried to rotate the rims on the wheel hubs so that the wheel balance weights are at an opposite axis angle as the wheel on the opposing side to try and smooth out the front end wheel balance.

A softer motorcycle tire should actually stay in contact with the road surface better/longer and thus should be perhaps better at preventing the speed wobble, if the wobble is indeed a result of front tire float. Reducing air pressure could definitely soften the tire but it could also change tire profile. Imagine rolling a motorcycle over a sheet of glass and observing the contact patches and wheel alignment from under the bike....

Last night, I tightened the head bearings a little more and now the 45mph decel wobble is gone. Not sure if this will improve anything or make it worse but the idea was to just recheck and re-torque everything again. As with any steering/front end changes, I will slowly and carefully increase speed and check test incrementally. The front end feels pretty much the same as before right now, though.

I also have a spare rim and even a spare tire right now, spare wheel bearings, etc. I will be shopping for a Metzeler tire but in the meantime, I may swap on the other wheel and different spare tire brand.

It may be an important reminder for anyone following this thread that it is important to understand the difference between a speed wobble and a speed weave when discussing and working on the issues. My understanding is that the speed wobble is the shake and wobble of the steering head and front end and the speed weave is the flex and movement of the frame aft of the steering head. The speed wobble starts at the steering head and according to the source link above, "does not involve the rear frame in any significant way". The speed weave does involve the rear frame and may also involve the swingarm, suspension, wheel, etc. and translate forward to the steering head.

Of course, I have experienced both the wobble and the weave, as many others have. The wobble is the 45mph decel headshake. The frame feels fine but the front wheel wobbles like a shopping cart castor wheel, just like in the video below. Thank goodness I have not experienced the same headshake at high speed. Weaving begins but I adjust speed, etc. to pull it out of the weave before any headshake can occur.

So in the current state of tune, my bike, by definition, does not headshake or head wobble at the moment but it does begin a high speed weave, which might develop into a headshake/wobble at high speed.

I am going to get a junk set of OEM shocks and weld the springs so that the shocks and springs can't move. I will be able to carefully then test these theories.

Sources:

• The Oscillations of a Flexible Castor, and the Effect of Front Fork Flexibility on the Stability of Motorcycles
  • https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/780307/
• Motorcycle Handling Technical Report
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=OPiznTL_sbsC&pg=PA275&lpg=PA275&dq=lowering+++fork+++wobble&source=bl&ots=E6EZtvErDL&sig=ACfU3U3tcYnranpieVx_W4dbaExINCb7zQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEjN6gsdKHAxUrJ0QIHTA8Cfs4HhDoAXoECCsQAw#v=onepage&q=lowering + fork + wobble&f=false
• Motorcycles Maneuverability and Handling
  • https://www.dynamotion.it/dinamoto/8_on-line_papers/wobble-weave/wobble-weave_eng.html
• Motorcycle Dynamics
  • https://www.dynamotion.it/dinamoto/4_teaching/books_motorcycle/book www english_2_version.htm
• The effect of Rake and Trail on Cruiser Motorcycles
  • https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/playing-angles/
• Murray Walker talks about Wobble and Weave (skip to 6:40 to see the effect of rider weight!)

The last one is interesting. It appears Mr. Walker is sitting on an XS1100. I've owned and ridden several variations of that bike and none of them ever wobbled on me, even up to 125! Unfortunately, it's been far too long ago and I don't remember what tire brands I was using besides Dunlop. I will have to find some old pics or forum posts to be more certain but they were fast and stable at high speed....

 

[Fire-medic]

I am going to get a junk set of OEM shocks and weld the springs so that the shocks and springs can't move

I wouldn't be welding on the body of the shock, it could explode with deadly consequences.

 

[Shuriken]

I wouldn't be welding on the body of the shock, it could explode with deadly consequences.

Yes, great reminder, thanks. My idea was to weld a strip along the springs to prevent the springs from compressing.

I had mentioned some posts back about making some square angle sections, but as I looked at the shocks, the shock mounts are offset, so a simple 13 inch length of angle with a couple of holes won't actually substitute the shock. I would also have to weld an offset to mimic the mechanical dimensions of the OEM shocks.

 

[Pighuntingpuppy]

On front-wheel-drive cars, I have always tried to rotate the rims on the wheel hubs so that the wheel balance weights are at an opposite axis angle as the wheel on the opposing side to try and smooth out the front end wheel balance.

When I worked at a tire shop, we had an irate customer telling us that we did not rotate his tires properly. We of course did. His rationale for this complaint was, when he put his tires on, he had the valve stems all on the same way. Now they all point in different directions. Someone had to explain to him that when he turned.....the wheels began spinning at different speeds and rotations.

So, I am confused at this comment. Unless the vehicle has welded diffs, as soon as that vehicle turns....no matter where the wheel is bolted in relation to the other one, they will eventually come back and or pass each other again.

 

[Shuriken]

Haha. Why didn't I think of that. Of course! Especially during turns and bumps!

 

[MaxMidnight]

On front-wheel-drive cars, I have always tried to rotate the rims on the wheel hubs so that the wheel balance weights are at an opposite axis angle as the wheel on the opposing side to try and smooth out the front end wheel balance.

On any axle with a differential one wheel is able to rotate at a different speed to the other. This is necessary as when going round a corner the outer wheel has to travel further than the inner.
On that basis, whilst wheel weights can be set on one wheel relative the other, cornering will mean their relative position will change... unless the distance travelled around LH and RH are the same.

Also if the wheel assemblies are correctly balanced the would one side affect the other?

 

[retrosdad]

I don’t want to be Mr. Negative,, but one reason I sold my 1999 VMax, was because of the well known speed wobble. And I will never buy another one. You know Yamaha is aware of the infamous VMax speed wobble. Yamaha should have used their immense technology to have solved it long ago. My theory is that Yamaha was in such a rush to get the VMax on the market that they didn’t pay enough attention, it didn’t spend enough money on research, that they ended up putting a defective frame on the VMax. JMHO

 

[88bradb]

I don’t want to be Mr. Negative,, but one reason I sold my 1999 VMax, was because of the well known speed wobble. And I will never buy another one. You know Yamaha is aware of the infamous VMax speed wobble. Yamaha should have used their immense technology to have solved it long ago. My theory is that Yamaha was in such a rush to get the VMax on the market that they didn’t pay enough attention, it didn’t spend enough money on research, that they ended up putting a defective frame on the VMax. JMHO

A simple swap of the stock front springs to Progressive,problem solved.

 

[Shuriken]

I don’t want to be Mr. Negative,, but one reason I sold my 1999 VMax, was because of the well known speed wobble. And I will never buy another one. You know Yamaha is aware of the infamous VMax speed wobble. Yamaha should have used their immense technology to have solved it long ago. My theory is that Yamaha was in such a rush to get the VMax on the market that they didn’t pay enough attention, it didn’t spend enough money on research, that they ended up putting a defective frame on the VMax. JMHO

Can't lie. Have had my own frustrations.

I wanted a v-max from the first time I watched a dyno tune video on youtube and heard that V4 note. I rode XS1100s before the v-max (and XS650 before that) and really liked them. I did a carb swap on an old XS11 and installed some Kawasaki Ninja carbs and the bike was completely reliable and sorted. It was also fast. The inline 4 had different characteristics but was also a shaft driven bike.

The first time I rode the v-max that I have now, I was actually shocked how much power the engine made.

In my opinion, this V4 engine easily overpowers the frame and suspension engineering on this bike. My XS1100s were only a few years older than the v-max and were considered quite powerful, at around 95bhp. You can imagine what it felt like going to 145bph, but in my opinion, on a relatively unchanged set of frame and suspension engineering.

However, none of my previous Yamaha bikes wobbled or weaved at speed.

Additionally, prior to the max, I've also ridden Suzuki's bikes (GS), Kawasaki (LTD), and of course the Honda V65 sabres and magnas. I hate to admit this and am not trying to paint with a broad brush, but none of those bikes wobbled or weaved either.

I'm not at all trying to blackball the max. I think every max would necessarily wobble and weave if there was a seriously inherent engineering flaw but plenty of owners haven't reported any issues. In addition, the internet is littered with forum posts of wobbling motorcycles. I was reading about MT-09 and other Yamaha bike owners reporting issues.

I've tried every manner I can think of regarding riding position, including laying on the tank, shifting weight backwards, etc. Laying on the tank doesn't work for me - does not settle the weave down. Added rider weight or a passenger makes the bike rock solid. Shifting weight backwards as a solo rider also seems to help. That's about the only thing that has worked so far.

The guys in Mr. Walker's video I posted above were only 10 and 11 Stone, or around 145-160lb riders. The 145lb rider had bad issues until he wore a weight belt.

The max is larger, beefier, heavier; the suspension is designed for this additional weight. I have to believe that if I were a 250lb rider, the wobble/weave issues at speed would settle completely down for me but I'd have to carry a bag of dumbells as well as the weight bench... In other words, completely impractical.

I'll figure it out for my bike at some point. But after doing everything short of a front end swap, I've pretty much touched every area. No, it's not worse, but it certainly isn't resolved. Feels like splitting hairs at this point. For example, imagine if it turns out to be 1mm of hidden lateral movement in the front fork tubes or even 1mm of unexpected movement from the rear suspension mounts. Sure, I've checked all of that multiple times in the garage, but out at high speed, the gyro effect of those wheels start to exert a surprisingly powerful lever force against the axle and components when inputs are commanded and even when uncommanded...

 

[Shuriken]

A simple swap of the stock front springs to Progressive,problem solved.

I wish this had worked for me when I did it. Maybe I'm not heavy enough of a rider....

 

[wilks]

I’ve owned three…..’86…’88….and ‘06 currently…..none have had the issues you guys speak of.

 

[MaxMidnight]

I don’t want to be Mr. Negative,, but one reason I sold my 1999 VMax, was because of the well known speed wobble. And I will never buy another one. You know Yamaha is aware of the infamous VMax speed wobble. Yamaha should have used their immense technology to have solved it long ago. My theory is that Yamaha was in such a rush to get the VMax on the market that they didn’t pay enough attention, it didn’t spend enough money on research, that they ended up putting a defective frame on the VMax. JMHO

Please provide evidence of this assertion.

 

[88bradb]

I wish this had worked for me when I did it. Maybe I'm not heavy enough of a rider....

My 95 did it and the Progressive springs solved it. I also had the same problem with my 88 Yamaha Venture Royale that I once had. It helped on my Venture back then so I tried it on my Vmax and was also successful. But I do tip the scales at 220lb.

 

[Shuriken]

My 95 did it and the Progressive springs solved it. I also had the same problem with my 88 Yamaha Venture Royale that I once had. It helped on my Venture back then so I tried it on my Vmax and was also successful. But I do tip the scales at 220lb.

Thanks for the help. I wonder if that's with your riding gear or if the gear is additional. I'm well under 200 and I really think this makes a huge difference....

We've talked about static sag a variety of times but with the OEM suspension on a typical older v-max, there aren't a lot of options. For the rear, there are settings to adjust for extra weight. I don't know what is happening scientifically with the rear OEM shocks when the dial is turned but the only thing I can think of is that it would expose or hide damping ports, which would quicken or slow the spring return rate. So in my opinion, there isn't any configurable sag on the OEM rear shocks (Someone correct me here as needed....). But when you add a passenger, the springs sag naturally due to weight.

Front suspension sag can be configured by changing the fork spring lengths or rates or by changing the spacers above the springs, or both. Shortening the spacers decompresses the factory springs (no preload) and then the appropriate spring must be chosen to match the rider weight. The engineers had to choose an OEM spring that would work for a variety of conditions and I presume they chose a middle-ground spring; one that would work for a midrange weight of riders. Too light, the spring isn't ideal; too heavy, the spring isn't ideal. Riders get around this limitation by adjusting spacer lengths to stiffen or lighten the spring, thus changing sag on the bike. Damping is not adjustable and is controlled by the fluid dynamics of oil flowing through holes in the damper rods. Funny thing though... how often do you ever read or hear of a v-max owner complaining that the front springs are too stiff? Most want to prevent the front end dive and thus go right for stiffer progressive springs! In the case of riders < 200, the standard progressive springs may not allow enough static sag....

I believe the front and rear OEM spring rates were also designed to match. Therefore, sitting on the bike should compress the front and rear suspension in such a way as to retain the intended geometry angles for safe riding. BUT...... the rear OEM springs aren't adjustable and presumably must be configured for a particular weight range. It is possible to hypothesize that lighter riders may not be causing enough rear sag. If the bike has more sag in the front than the back, the steering could quicken and destabilize.

Obviously the rear suspension can be changed, which I have done. I have Progressive rear shocks and progressive springs installed in the forks. Progressive rears have spring preload adjustments but who knows how matched they are to the front spring rates. One immediate thing I have noticed is that going too light on the rear springs seems to enhance speed weave after it begins but going too stiff on the rear springs reduces static sag!

For riders under 200, I think the standard progressive front springs could be too stiff, even without any preload from the fork spacers. I do believe that properly setting static sag is critical in the performance of the bike but on this older bike, can become very expensive to get right, because the adjustable suspension is expensive.