V-Max Speed Wobble (ran it up to 115mph and...)

[retrosdad]

You can believe what you want but repeating the same diatribe doesn't make it true.
This is pure speculation without presenting a shred of evidence of Yamaha's complicity and (IMO) does nothing to help those with the condition.

The cause of serious accidents are always investigated by the authorities to try and ascertain the cause and if the vehicle is found to play a part in it the manufacturer will be involved (e.g. Suzuki SV1000 if memory serves well) and as far as I'm aware that is not the case for Yamaha.
There will also be reports that detail investigations and conclude what the issue was (see here) and there are probably others.
Perhaps you should read the content to establish if it offers any basis to your opinion?

Everybody is entitled to have opinions but I would hope that they would base them on factual data rather than what they would like to be true.

If you have a dead cyclist and a badly damaged VMax, exactly how do you determine if a death wobble is or isn’t the cause?

 

[retrosdad]

You can believe what you want but repeating the same diatribe doesn't make it true.
This is pure speculation without presenting a shred of evidence of Yamaha's complicity and (IMO) does nothing to help those with the condition.

The cause of serious accidents are always investigated by the authorities to try and ascertain the cause and if the vehicle is found to play a part in it the manufacturer will be involved (e.g. Suzuki SV1000 if memory serves well) and as far as I'm aware that is not the case for Yamaha.
There will also be reports that detail investigations and conclude what the issue was (see here) and there are probably others.
Perhaps you should read the content to establish if it offers any basis to your opinion?

Everybody is entitled to have opinions but I would hope that they would base them on factual data rather than what they would like to be true.

I am not a detective, an investigator, a motorcycle design engineer, a motorcycle mechanic, etc.. Nor do I have any elusive evidence or proof about the infamous VMax death wobble. What I do have is a huge mountain of examples of countless VMax owners posting about their knowledge of the speed wobble. In addition, I have countless example of VMax owners spending countless hours of labor, tweeks, parts swaps, parts removal/addition, adjustments, adding/subtracting air/oil/fluid/weight, etc. I think what I have just mentioned proves there is a deadly problem somewhere within the gen 1 VMax. If I had evidence I would present it. But my lack of evidence is not evidence that there is no wobble defect. Based on all I have just said, I offer my opinion, my suspicion and my theory and my speculation.

 

[cyclejunkie]

d a box on the back of my bike today and took it up to about 95 to test the wobble. It seemed to make it slightly worse. The box weighs about 10K. I think the weight needs to be concentrated somewhere above the swinging arm to stabilise the frame. I am coming to the conclusion that to fix this issue the frame needs to be stripped away from the bike and strengthening gussets welded in to stop the flex. Also the swinging arm could probably be braced also.

I’m guessing maybe not run 100mph with a garden tool box strapped to the sissy bar? Just thinking out load.

 

[Shuriken]

Ok, I've installed the 43mm triple trees, forks, and wheel. I don't yet have rotors, calipers, or fork brace yet but working on getting those.

Not yet a fair comparison without the other parts installed but it feels just about the same (can't feel any difference yet). I am sure the fork brace will of course help and I can evaluate at that time.

 

[MaxMidnight]

If you have a dead cyclist and a badly damaged VMax, exactly how do you determine if a death wobble is or isn’t the cause?

Processes in the US may differ but this is what happens in the UK.
Where there are no witnesses then I recognise that it may not possible to give a definitive answer to the cause of an accident.
I doubt that this is often the case so based on eye witness accounts and forensic evidence in most cases a reasonable conclusion can be reached.

I am not a detective, an investigator, a motorcycle design engineer, a motorcycle mechanic, etc.. Nor do I have any elusive evidence or proof about the infamous VMax death wobble.

Then why do you keep suggesting there is one?

What I do have is a huge mountain of examples of countless VMax owners posting about their knowledge of the speed wobble. In addition, I have countless example of VMax owners spending countless hours of labor, tweeks, parts swaps, parts removal/addition, adjustments, adding/subtracting air/oil/fluid/weight, etc. I think what I have just mentioned proves there is a deadly problem somewhere within the gen 1 VMax.

How many is 'countless' and how do you quantify 'huge' and where have you obtained this information?
I have been on this site (and others) since 2007 and whilst the subject does occur from time to time countless and huge are not adjectives I would use to describe the issue.
I note you joined some 18 months ago so I'd be interested to know how many threads there have been on the subject since then.

If I had evidence I would present it. But my lack of evidence is not evidence that there is no wobble defect. Based on all I have just said, I offer my opinion, my suspicion and my theory and my speculation.

What you appear to be saying is that you don't need to produce any facts to substantiate an allegation and therefore your hypothesis should be taken as true?
I'm glad our criminal justice system doesn't work on that basis or I may have been locked up years ago!

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that some bikes exhibit the characteristics BUT there will be numerous causes for this and trying to fit them all into a single inherent issue with the bike is several leaps too far (MO).

 

[retrosdad]

Processes in the US may differ but this is what happens in the UK.
Where there are no witnesses then I recognise that it may not possible to give a definitive answer to the cause of an accident.
I doubt that this is often the case so based on eye witness accounts and forensic evidence in most cases a reasonable conclusion can be reached.

Then why do you keep suggesting there is one?

How many is 'countless' and how do you quantify 'huge' and where have you obtained this information?
I have been on this site (and others) since 2007 and whilst the subject does occur from time to time countless and huge are not adjectives I would use to describe the issue.
I note you joined some 18 months ago so I'd be interested to know how many threads there have been on the subject since then.

What you appear to be saying is that you don't need to produce any facts to substantiate an allegation and therefore your hypothesis should be taken as true?
I'm glad our criminal justice system doesn't work on that basis or I may have been locked up years ago!

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that some bikes exhibit the characteristics BUT there will be numerous causes for this and trying to fit them all into a single inherent issue with the bike is several leaps too far (MO).

You spend a lot of key strokes trying to counter my speculation. Are you unable to spare a few keys strikes devoted to trying to solve a mystery? A mystery evidenced by many posters on numerous forums, that a serious (perhaps deadly) high speed wobble is likely built into many gen 1 VMaxes? Before one can solve a mystery, one must notice and then be able to describe the mystery. That is the stage I am at. If I had everything you demand of me in you latest post, there would be no mystery and therefore no need for discussion between you and me. JMHO

 

[brian hicks]

My observations for today. I got on the highway here in UK and managed to get to 115Mph.(Private road, of course.) I found that if I put my weight on the foot pegs and force myself back into the seat whilst holding the bars tight it greatly reduces the tank slapping. I also found that if I go over bumps such as cats eyes in the middle of the road whilst banked over at 5-10 degrees then the whole frame seems to bounce sideways like a jelly. So my conclusion is that almost anything you do such as tightening the steering bearings, tyre changes and pressure change, changing wheel bearings, changing rear suspension, changing springs in front suspension etc will have some effect but the real answer is to strengthen the frame with welded gussets and maybe brace the swinging arm also. Here in UK the max speed limit is 70Mph on motorways and the average speed around town and country side is probably about 40-50 Mph. So I will just learn to live with it because I like the bike. Those posers with 200Bhp sports bikes have to leave around 160 horses in the stable, unless they are having a track day. So I will stay in the real world.

 

[retrosdad]

My observations for today. I got on the highway here in UK and managed to get to 115Mph.(Private road, of course.) I found that if I put my weight on the foot pegs and force myself back into the seat whilst holding the bars tight it greatly reduces the tank slapping. I also found that if I go over bumps such as cats eyes in the middle of the road whilst banked over at 5-10 degrees then the whole frame seems to bounce sideways like a jelly. So my conclusion is that almost anything you do such as tightening the steering bearings, tyre changes and pressure change, changing wheel bearings, changing rear suspension, changing springs in front suspension etc will have some effect but the real answer is to strengthen the frame with welded gussets and maybe brace the swinging arm also. Here in UK the max speed limit is 70Mph on motorways and the average speed around town and country side is probably about 40-50 Mph. So I will just learn to live with it because I like the bike. Those posers with 200Bhp sports bikes have to leave around 160 horses in the stable, unless they are having a track day. So I will stay in the real world.

Excellent attitude and real a world information. Thank you for taking the time and effort to post that.

 

[Shuriken]

I hadn't thought about pushing forward against the footpegs...

I'm still trying to assemble enough parts to try the 43mm forks. I've found only a couple reasonable options for a fork brace to fit the 43mm forks and none are the OEM brace..

As for brakes, the 93 and newer forks just make for a plethora of options and I'm trying to figure out what to get.

 

[MaxMidnight]

You spend a lot of key strokes disparaging me and/or my speculation.

I have never made any disparaging remarks about you and I'm disappointed that my challenging your assertions are taken as such. As I have previously said, I you have the right to believe whatever you want but if you make your thoughts public the you shouldn't be surprised if they are challenged.
I also don't think it unreasonable to ask you to share the sources of the information that gave rise to your opinions.

Are you unable to spare a few keys strikes devoted to trying to solve a mystery?

A few key strokes won't solve the 'mystery' as there are likely to be several causes, but as a start see posts 181, 191, 192, 194 &212.

A mystery evidenced by many posters on numerous forums, that a serious (perhaps deadly) high speed wobble is likely built into many gen 1 VMaxes?

What I have requested (several times) are the details of the sites that contain the 'many posters on numerous forums' so we can see for ourselves what others are saying. Despite my best efforts searching hear I have yet to identify 'many posters on this, the #1(?) V Max Forum.
To date you haven't offered anything to back up your comments.

Before one can solve a mystery, one must notice and then be able to describe the mystery.

I think 'symptoms' would be better than 'mystery', but at least it is something we can agree on. Some advice attached.

That is the stage I am at. If I had everything you demand of me in you latest post, there would be no mystery and therefore no need for discussion between you and me. JMHO

I suggest you re-read my last post where the main point was to ask you to back up your assertions which you continue to avoid doing.

Over the years I have tried to offer advice and help wherever required. One consistent thread in my posts is to base any action on hard evidence and where possible measurements. My #1 rule is 'Don't make changes based on guesswork, hunches or claims made by others unless they can back them up'.

 

[retrosdad]

I have never made any disparaging remarks about you and I'm disappointed that my challenging your assertions are taken as such. As I have previously said, I you have the right to believe whatever you want but if you make your thoughts public the you shouldn't be surprised if they are challenged.
I also don't think it unreasonable to ask you to share the sources of the information that gave rise to your opinions.

A few key strokes won't solve the 'mystery' as there are likely to be several causes, but as a start see posts 181, 191, 192, 194 &212.

What I have requested (several times) are the details of the sites that contain the 'many posters on numerous forums' so we can see for ourselves what others are saying. Despite my best efforts searching hear I have yet to identify 'many posters on this, the #1(?) V Max Forum.
To date you haven't offered anything to back up your comments.

I think 'symptoms' would be better than 'mystery', but at least it is something we can agree on. Some advice attached.

I suggest you re-read my last post where the main point was to ask you to back up your assertions which you continue to avoid doing.

Over the years I have tried to offer advice and help wherever required. One consistent thread in my posts is to base any action on hard evidence and where possible measurements. My #1 rule is 'Don't make changes based on guesswork, hunches or claims made by others unless they can back them up'.

Over many years I have read about the supposed VMax death wobble. This was a casual observation and I did not keep a records about when, how, why or who provided me the information. So I am not going to spend my time going back and try and gather all that information. Besides, you and I are not two attorneys arguing our case in a courtroom in front of a judge and jury. We are just two people who are expressing our conflicting opinions. So I will leave it at this. You seem of there is no VMax death wobble. I claim there likely is a death wobble. So let any readers here make up their own mind.

 

[MaxMidnight]

Some weave, yes, some wobble, most bikes will under certain conditions, but 'death' wobble? - I'm sure I'd have read about fatalities on here over the last 17 years if it was the case.
I suspect many of us have already made up their minds.

 

[Shuriken]

I intend to solve the issue... just waiting for parts to show up. No, I am not happy about the cost involved but I am very satisfied to have found and resolved a variety of other issues along the way.

Apparently, finding 93 and up fork braces are like finding 4 leaf clovers at the end of the rainbow. I love the additional options the 93 and up forks offer regarding brakes. I also love being able to ditch the air crossover tube!

 

[Fire-medic]

The Superbrace is a good one. Kyle had one for sale awhile ago.

 

[retrosdad]

I intend to solve the issue... just waiting for parts to show up. No, I am not happy about the cost involved but I am very satisfied to have found and resolved a variety of other issues along the way.

Apparently, finding 93 and up fork braces are like finding 4 leaf clovers at the end of the rainbow. I love the additional options the 93 and up forks offer regarding brakes. I also love being able to ditch the air crossover tube!

I admire your determination.

 

[Littleschipper]

“Death Wobble?” Back in the day, when I experienced this, it was called head shake. I personally never heard of any deaths as a result of this bug, but to repeat an old popular saying, it did “scare me to death!”

 

[VMAXXIMUM]

Well I am directly challenging the assertion that it’s a factory fault that’s widespread. As I have previously stated every instance I’ve read about was tracked down to one or several causes that were easily remedied. Flex in the frame and swing arm has been well documented but only shows up under spirited riding and is and has also been fairly easily remedied with frame braces, solid motor mounts etc. and with a bit more effort, frame and swing arm gusseting.
At this point in your collective search for a solution it may be time to consider something more serious like a bent frame.

 

[Shuriken]

Well I am directly challenging the assertion that it’s a factory fault that’s widespread. As I have previously stated every instance I’ve read about was tracked down to one or several causes that were easily remedied. Flex in the frame and swing arm has been well documented but only shows up under spirited riding and is and has also been fairly easily remedied with frame braces, solid motor mounts etc. and with a bit more effort, frame and swing arm gusseting.
At this point in your collective search for a solution it may be time to consider something more serious like a bent frame.

I have quickly been moving beyond the realm of, as you mention, fairly easy remedies, so yes, it is entirely possible to have a frame issue. I have considered this indeed. I'm hoping I can find a front fork frame brace and get the 93 front-end functional before I run out of riding season but sourcing a brace within budget has proven to be an issue. Either way, I am fast running out of riding season for this year anyway and have many other things to get done, so whatever I do this fall/winter regarding the bike will slow to a crawl and may not involve any ride testing.

 

[Tom Determan]

Maybe it's time to put a different set of eyes (at the bike) on the problem. We all miss stuff occasionally and another set of well qualified eyes might find something that was overlooked. This thread has all of the best qualified Vmax guys involved, so my guess is something is not being reported accurately.

 

[retrosdad]

I admire your determination.

O

Maybe it's time to put a different set of eyes (at the bike) on the problem. We all miss stuff occasionally and another set of well qualified eyes might find something that was overlooked. This thread has all of the best qualified Vmax guys involved, so my guess is something is not being reported accurately.

there is a particular type of behavior here involving the VMax high speed wobble. (Ok, I dropped using “death”wobble ). That type of behavior is that numerous riders have recognized a VMax wobble problem. To me, that is prima facia evidence a high speed wobble problem exists. So, we seem to have ONE wobble problem. Yet we read of SEVERAL riders all using a entirely different solution to the one problem. Is several solutions really the solution of that one problem. It doesn’t make sense to me. BTW, different riders using different solutions to that one problem, and then that rider posting he has solved the wobble problem, is the strange behavior I mentioned above. JMHO